Listener Call

PETER: If you’re just joining us, this is BackStory. Today we’re looking at Utopian thinking throughout American history, and we’ve reached the point in the show where we turn to listeners who have reached out to us about this week’s topic. Hey, guys, we’ve got a call from Colorado Springs. It’s Robert. Robert, welcome to the show.

ROBERT: Thanks for having me on.

PETER: You got a question for us about utopia. Where is it?

ROBERT: So my question for you guys stems from the founding period, and it deals with the Utopian philosophy of Republican virtue, and its application under the Articles of Confederation. It’s a little bit of a unique take, because contrary to most dystopian experiences, that stems from a lack of government.

PETER: Yeah, yeah. I gotcha.

ROBERT: And I was curious if you guys could analyze how the dystopian experience of the lack of government and excess liberty f people influenced conceptions of the role of government throughout each of your centuries.

PETER: Whoa. OK. Well, I’ll get us rolling, Robert. Wonderful question. And this is not a planned, perfect world, it’s the default of old regime. What you’re talking about, Robert, is anarchy. Anarchy was a lived experience for early Americans under the Articles of Confederation. That’s the regime that antedates the Federal Constitution, and it lasted from 1781 until 1789.

And I think what we’re getting at here is the practical experience of the so-called state of nature. So that, in a way, is the backdrop for the reform of government under the federal constitution.

ED: Well, I have a question for you, Peter. Was the Constitution a Utopian vision?

PETER: No, no. It’s anti-Utopian, in the sense that you can see this in the Federalist Papers, where Alexander Hamilton’s arguing against the golden dream of another age in which there would be no need for the state. And what Hamilton and Madison are arguing, and Jay in those early numbers of the Federalist papers is that the United States has been a failure.

So the more perfect union of the Constitution is the antithesis of the failure of union under the Articles, and that’s a failure of republicanism. Robert, are you out there? What do you think?

ROBERT: Yes, I am. And what was just interesting is just how this would align with this idea of American exceptionalism, and how–

PETER: You’ve got it.

ROBERT: America was kind of viewed as this Utopian escape from tyranny, but then all of a sudden you put liberty in the hands of the people, and it proves to be a bit of a failure initially.

PETER: Yeah, well, in that sense, right. And that’s the American focus on constitutions and institutions begins with this failure of community to be spontaneous. I think that’s what we’re talking here.

BRIAN: Yeah, we’re going to hardwire some of these rules, rather than just leaving it up to fate.

PETER: That’s right.

ED: You know, there’s an interesting irony here, and Robert, I wonder if this would address the general question that you have. If you think about what happens soon after the real founding of the United States in the early 19th century, Europeans look at it and say, you know, the absence of a strong government, the absence of established religion, the absence of a king means that it’s the perfect blank slate on which to create government-less Utopian communities, right?

And so throughout the early American era, people think, OK, now here’s our chance in the vacuum of authority to create something.

PETER: Yeah. I think you’ve got a good insight there, and that is there is something fundamentally Utopian about American anti-statism. It’s easy to see how bad the state is, particularly when you model it on King George III and British despotism.

BRIAN: Or the Department of Motor Vehicles.

PETER: Or you name it. Regulation is bad, and we’re good. And I think this notion of something spontaneous, natural, and honest and authentic about who we are as individuals, I think that is a very American antithesis, whereas Utopians elsewhere in the world are statist Utopians, often.

You start with the notion of governance and how to reform that in order to do well for the people, the commonwealth, but Americans believe that the material you’re working with is, well, it’s us, and that we’re basically.

ED: Speak for yourself.

PETER: OK, so Robert, have we solved all your problems for you? You’re thinking about how to live the good life, and I hope that you’ve gotten some insights from us about how you can go out and form the perfect community.

ROBERT: Well, it’s a bit far from that, but I think I’m maybe a little– I’m a little closer.

PETER: OK, well that’s great.

BRIAN: Thank you, Robert.

ROBERT: I appreciate it. Thank you, guys.

PETER: Bye, bye.

BRIAN: Bye.

ROBERT: Bye.

BRIAN: It’s time for another quick break. When we get back, we’re going to call up one resident of a modern day utopia.